Posts by Faithful Witness

This looks like an easy way to put in your time! Yahoo News photo

by Faithful Witness in

members of the jehovah's witnesses faith, earl moore, left, and thomas lewis, sit on a bench at reyburn park waiting to talk to people about the bible in philadelphia on wednesday, july 16, 2014.

(ap photo/matt rourke).

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/members-jehovahs-witnesses-faith-earl-moore-left-thomas-photo-210133740.html;_ylt=awrbjscoi.dtoc0axkzrtdmd;_ylu=x3odmtb1zzdtotbmbhbvcwmxbhnlywnpbwfnzqrjb2xva2jmmqr2dglkaw--.

Faithful Witness

Members of the Jehovah's Witnesses faith, Earl Moore, left, and Thomas Lewis, sit on a bench at Reyburn Park waiting to talk to people about the Bible in Philadelphia on Wednesday, July 16, 2014. (AP Photo/Matt Rourke)

Jehovah's Witnesses waiting to talk to people about the Bible

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/members-jehovahs-witnesses-faith-earl-moore-left-thomas-photo-210133740.html;_ylt=AwrBJSCoi.dTOC0AXKzRtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTB1ZzdtOTBmBHBvcwMxBHNlYwNpbWFnZQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--

This is news?

24

Detroit International Convention, June 6-8 - IS the public invited?

by Faithful Witness in

my mom was worrying out loud, about inviting the "public" to this event.

she told me they were announcing that people were not booking their hotels fast enough, and "we don't want to make the jw's look bad!

she told me about a promotional video they all watched, full of propaganda about the ford field house and all the arrangements that had been made for transportation and parking, and the city of detroit.

Faithful Witness

Which day were they blessed with the appearance of Gerrit Losch?

I was relieved to hear that my parents left Detroit Friday night. The shuttle bus arrangements were an absolute fiasco, during rush hour in Detroit. My mom was on a new medication, where she was not supposed to be out in the sun. Little did she know, that was going to be standing in a line 2 blocks long, waiting for so long in the HOT sun! She started hallucinating and said "people had purple spots all over their faces..."

They "rushed" her to the front of the line, but it still took them about 2 hours to get back to the hotel. Of course, my brother in law and sister had already been back long enough to go and have dinner before they got back. Apparently, he has some privileges that my dad does not have.

Anyway, my dad got pissed, packed his suitcase and left. "I've had enough of this bull&*it. We are not staying one more day!" They even took home the elderly man who rode along with them to the convention.

Of course, my mom is relaying this story to me, so embarassed and humiliated that she made a spectacle of herself. She wished she could have stayed for the whole convention. Ugh.

Just wondering which day the blessed appearance was... I know my sister and her family saw it, and clearly took the speeches to heart. They did NOT come to the family reunion.

42

My Elderette returns for a final Bible Study session, after I avoided her for 2 months (very long post)

by Faithful Witness in

some of this will be repeat, since it's been a little while since i posted about my "bible study" sessions with miss k, my elderette.

we are talking about the name of jehovah.

thanks for talking with us today.

Faithful Witness

DD: Diana asked her if anyone outside the JW organization could be chosen or annointed, and go to Heaven. Miss K answered almost all of Diana's questions with, "I believe what the Bible says."

I have asked my JW dad that question. "Dad, what is the difference between me and you? If I don't become a JW, am I going to be destroyed at Armageddon?"

His response: "That's not for ME to judge. That is what I like about 'this.' I no longer have to judge people, or make decisions about others. I can leave it in Jehovah's hands." Ugh.

If I see Miss K again, and get the opportunity, I will ask her point blank. I don't recall her explicitly expressing any of her OWN beliefs, but repeating the mantra, "I just know we have the TRUTH." and "I believe what the Bible says."

I have found it impossible to get a JW to express their own opinions or beliefs.

My mom will say, "The 'Witnesses' believe..."

Miss K will use the above statements, along with, "We are not FORCED to do anything we don't want to do. I am here because I believe I have the Truth!"

42

My Elderette returns for a final Bible Study session, after I avoided her for 2 months (very long post)

by Faithful Witness in

some of this will be repeat, since it's been a little while since i posted about my "bible study" sessions with miss k, my elderette.

we are talking about the name of jehovah.

thanks for talking with us today.

Faithful Witness

This whole time that I have been relaying the experiences with my friend Diana, she was expressing her concerns that I was not doing the most important thing: Sharing the Gospel of Christ.

Diana has read a few books and some literature about helping JW's, but the concept was not sinking in for her. Since it was going to be my last meeting with Miss K, I invited Diana to come with me.

I knew that the presence of Diana would probably make Miss K never come back, and would stop her from bullying me into agreeing to just one more visit.

I wanted Diana to see for herself that Miss K's mind is behind a brick wall. You will not reach a JW, by confronting their core belief system. You must avoid the 4 biggies: the Trinity, everlasting hellfire, the Deity of Christ and the existence of an eternal soul.

They got into a couple of rounds of bible ping-pong, and then I would draw them back into the same request: Show me why I am supposed to call God by the name "Jehovah."

42

My Elderette returns for a final Bible Study session, after I avoided her for 2 months (very long post)

by Faithful Witness in

some of this will be repeat, since it's been a little while since i posted about my "bible study" sessions with miss k, my elderette.

we are talking about the name of jehovah.

thanks for talking with us today.

Faithful Witness

DOC: I won't be surprised if she shows up again in a month or so... she has been persistent since the beginning. I have given her nothing but objections and challenges. Even so, she kept coming to the same conclusion: "I don't think you're an apostate. You don't come across as someone who is trying to 'take down the Watchtower' to me. I think you just need to study the Bible from a fresh perspective." Each visit she made, also turned into 2-3 hours of time on her report card, so it wasn't a total waste! ;)

Each time she left, I would remind her that she still had not proved her points from the Bible. This time, she did get a little indignant when I said "you won't answer my questions..." Why is EVERY question answered with a QUESTION? SO irritating.

Anyway, it was (slightly) fun and enlightening to watch her in action with someone who "doesn't understand how we do things." I learned a lot about her training and tactics, when I didn't have to be the only one responding.

When Miss K was saying that it seemed clear that I wasn't interested in continuing our study, I said, "If I wanted to become a Jehovah's Witness, would I be required to call God 'Jehovah'?" Their eyes got bigger, and her friend said, "That would be your personal choice." I pressed it a little bit farther, and asked, "What if I wanted to just call him Father or even Yahweh?" ... "Again, that would be your personal choice. We aren't FORCED to do anything we don't want to do."

42

What did Jesus really mean, when he said he had made his Father's name known?

by Faithful Witness in

i am preparing for my meeting this friday with miss k. we are reviewing the bible teach book, and she is looking forward to "showing me some things about the divine name.

" i don't know what she might pull out of her hat this time... but that section of the teach book is so completely assanine, i don't even know what to say.

) what did jesus mean when he said that to his father?.

Faithful Witness

I have been avoiding her, and enjoying my summer!!

Before she could even present any evidence that God's name was Jehovah, I told them about the information I had found about how that pronunciation had ever been configured. I told them how I had read that while it once appeared as "Jehovah" instead of YHWH, that the removal had actually been a correction. They had no rebuttal, but just repeated my claim, "Oh... So the removal of Jehovah was a 'correction'?"

Blondie: That is another good example, and also a quote from Deuteronomy. Is there any example of Jesus saying Jehovah, without referring to what was already written?

What language did Jesus speak? How was the tetragrammaton pronounced back in the days that Jesus walked on earth with us? When he quoted the Old Testament, did he say it in Hebrew? What was the Hebrew pronunciation? What was the Aramaic pronunciation?

Why fixate on saying a name, when you know it is mispronounced?

42

My Elderette returns for a final Bible Study session, after I avoided her for 2 months (very long post)

by Faithful Witness in

some of this will be repeat, since it's been a little while since i posted about my "bible study" sessions with miss k, my elderette.

we are talking about the name of jehovah.

thanks for talking with us today.

Faithful Witness

Some of this will be repeat, since it's been a little while since I posted about my "Bible Study" sessions with Miss K, my elderette.

First, a little history and a few important points: I HAVE NEVER BEEN A JW. I was a Bible Student for about 3 years (on and off). I was a very slow study, and I was never quite convinced. When my husband and I discovered some information about the history of the Watchtower Society, we asked questions of our (then) study conductor. The 77-year old born-in JW, sat there and lied, denied and made quite an emotional display, in his reaction to the "apostate" information we were asking him about. After that, we ended our study and stopped attending meetings. We were not going to fake it, just so we could enjoy the fellowship at the Kingdom Hall.

Sadly, my parents and my sister (and her entire family, 2 kids, husband) were studying in a different town, at a more progressive rate. They were already baptized by the time we quit studying. My brother in law accused me of "turning my back on Jehovah," and soon after that, they decided that they had to "protect their children from the apostasy and idolatry" in our home. Now, our family has been torn into pieces by the JW cult... just as my mother (now baptized) predicted, before she started studying with the JW's.

It's been about 2 years, since I brought this issue to the forefront with the entire family (most are non-JW, don't want to hear about it), when we were trying to arrange our annual reunion. Everything hit the fan, and I have pretty much lost hope of ever reconnecting with my JW sister. She has been absorbed into the cult. My parents still speak to me, and my mother (a weak JW, who shows clear signs of confusion) continues to speak to me and visit us occasionally.

===========

Anyway... JW's continue to call on us sometimes. We live on the border of 2 territories, so we get calls from the local KH, and from the one we actually attended (although more rare, as they have pretty much figured it out and marked us... they still stop by once or twice a year to check in on us). We were love-bombed at the meetings, and they adored our young children. (Thankfully, the kids have no memory of the meetings or being inside a KH!!)

When JW's come to my door (they seem to be atracted to me), I ask them questions that could never be answered by our teacher, and express concerns that I have about how Watchtower conflicts with the Bible and what Jesus taught. For lack of a better term, I like to play "Stump the Witness," in hopes of getting them to think for themselves, or possibly flip a switch that will someday turn on a light in their own mind. I have no dillusions that I am going to "lead someone to the Lord" in one conversation... but I am not shy about casting doubt on the JW organization itself. They claim to be representing God, so they should be able to stand up to scrutiny.

============

5 months ago, in March of this year, I began a discussion with a JW from our former KH. She was an acquaintance, an elderette, whose husband was one of the major players at the KH. We never knew titles or positions there, but he was usually acting as the hall monitor. There had been a few times, when he reminded me to keep my babies from disrupting the meetings. I spent most of my time in the mother's room, nursing my son, or walking the hallway with a restless baby. Both of them always had a bit of a "better than you are" type attitude, but not every personality is the same. We just never clicked or socialized.

My elderette, I will call her Miss K, worked on me slowly at first, and finally got me to agree to restart my Bible Study. You can look at my history and see blow-by-blow accounts of the discussions we have had over the past few months. Since she was the first JW to actually come back, despite my challenging questions, I kept talking to her. She had convinced herself that she was going to somehow "help me" see things from a perspective that made me believe that the JW's HAVE THE TRUTH.

Each visit, she would come and make claims or try to answer my questions. My first question was about the faithful and discreet slave. (Fail - see previous post... she did not have evidence or the answer to that question, so she put it on the shelf)

I also asked about why they believe they can work their way to salvation, and turn in time cards, reporting their efforts to men for recognition. (Fail)

Miss K kept repeating the same mantra: "I know we have the TRUTH." and "I have come here to show you what the Bible teaches."

After avoiding it for several meetings, we ended up agreeing to use the Bible Teach book again, because she believed that it would help me to just start over at the beginning. I was not ready for the complicated truth, because I "did not know enough," you have to "build a foundation before you can build a house," and (yes she did) "You are a kindergartener." So... I found my old copy, which I had finished studying with the previous teacher.

(I shocked myself, by what I found highlighted in this book. !!! I know I was trying to believe it at the time, but I had managed to find and highlight the most bizarre and condescending, mind-controlling statements in this little book. Wow! I am so glad I never joined this cult!)

I had asked her why JW's were so fixated on calling God by the name Jehovah, even though it was a mispronunciation. Miss K thought that using this book, was going to help me "understand." Instead, I just found it insulting to read this condescending rhetoric. It's supposed to be from the Bible, but the whole point seemed to be, that "if YOUR Bible does not say Jehovah 6,000 times, then you need one that does."

We read the first chapter of Bible Teach together, and then we were gearing up to talk more about the name. I went on vacation, she went on vacation, summer happened, and I managed to postpone our meeting for 2 months. She finally came over yesterday, with a new partner.

============ Latest meeting - finally, the point

She was surprised to see that I also had a friend with me, Diana, an evangelical Christian who has compassion for people who are trapped in cults like JW's and LDS. I had told Miss K a little bit about Diana before, and Diana has been filled in on all the details of my meetings with Miss K. Miss K had a friend with her, that I had never met until last week, when they came over to see if they could pin me down for another BS session.

So, we sat down, and I informed Miss K that I had a real time limit this time. I had 90 minutes, and I had to leave. She went right into her introduction, explaining how we were going to be using the Bible Teach book, and that our goal was to discuss the divine name of Jehovah, and why we are supposed to use it.

Miss K explained how the Bible Teach book was a good tool, to build a foundation and gain understanding of what the Bible really says. Diana asked why they needed a book to explain the Bible. Miss K repeated herself, and tried to explain that it was a step-by-step process... you can't understand the complex issues, until you grasp the basic ones ("just like in math... you can't do calculus, unless you know how to add and subtract"). *eyeroll from Diana.

(=#= Real world translation: "You won't believe what the Watchtower says, until you learn to think like the Watchtower tells you to think" =#=)

Step 1. Miss K explains that we all must agree that the Bible is the true and accurate word of God. We agree and move on. She reads paragraph 5 from Bible Teach, and we discuss how we have to keep "asking, seeking and knocking... you have to keep searching, and then you will find the answers."

Step 1 complete. Bible is true.

-- Miss K took a few minutes to talk about why Jesus came to the earth, and we all agreed that he never sinned or lied. We also read some verses about how you must not add anything to the scriptures, nor take anything away...

Step 2. Who is God? Do you want to be close to God? What is his name? --

Instead of going on to paragraph 6 in the book, we start talking about how God has a name. That's when the discussion gets more heated and interesting. Miss K says, "You asked me to show you where in the Bible, it shows Jesus calling God by the name Jehovah." We read a passage, in which Jesus is quoting from Isaiah. She (again) tries to point out that since LORD is in all-caps, it means that Jesus was saying Jehovah.

Diana says, "It is not in all-caps in my Bible. It is "the Lord."

I say, "It is in all-caps in mine, because the entire paragraph is in all-caps. That means it is a quote of Old Testament scriptures."

Miss K is unphased, and does not even acknowledge that her point failed. She has us flip back to Isaiah, and read the reference, where it DOES say LORD, which means that the tetragrammaton appeared here in the text. "Since Jesus was reading it, he obviously said it!" We had read some verses about "don't take anything away from the scriptures, and don't add anything to them."

Miss K said, "If Jesus never sinned or lied, then how could he have read this passage from Isaiah, unless he said God's name? If he removed or changed it, then he was sinning against God, and we agreed he never did that."

I said, "If he said 'Jehovah,' then why does it say that he said 'the Lord?' "

Miss K replied, "Well, we have already established (previous discussion) that the scriptures were being corrupted as early as the first century."

I said, "Wait a minute. Why did we just sit here and agree that the Bible was true and accurate? God did not preserve it and keep it accurate?"

Diana piped in with some questions about their translation, and she became a great way for Miss K to bob and weave, in and out of topics. They kept getting sidetracked, as Diana felt that this was her only chance to try to share the gospel of Christ with Miss K and her friend. She kept hitting them with both barrels (haha), and ended up getting frustrated and Miss K even went so far as to rudely tell her, "We are not talking about that today. We are talking about the name of Jehovah. You don't have to sit in with us, if you don't want to. I did not come here to argue."

Diana said, "Can we discuss what is the truth?"

Miss K said we could, but tried to re-establish her footing and put Diana in her place. ("I am the teacher here, not you!" was her attitude). I didn't want the whole thing to turn into a big cat fight, so I tried to get back on topic.

"Can I ask a question? What word were the Jews using back then, when they pronounced the tetragrammaton?"

Miss K said, "We don't know, but Jehovah is just the English translation, that we use today."

I asked again, "Why is there no record of Jesus calling God by the name Jehovah, yet you claim that this was one of the key purposes of his coming to earth... to make His name known? There is no account of him saying the name himself."

She repeated her answer, that the Bible was corrupted. I asked her what evidence they had that their revision was an accurate correction. She said something about the discovery of some "fragments" of something. (weak!)

Diana and Miss K went back and forth a few times, as Diana kept confronting her on key JW doctrines. Each time, Miss K said, "I will be happy to come back and discuss that with you, but that is not what we are talking about today. You just DON'T KNOW ENOUGH about what the Bible says about the condition of the dead, etc..."

Diana and Miss K are probably about equally matched, in how much they have studied the Bible. Diana does not have accurate understanding of Watchtower interpretations of the Bible, but she has read and studied the Bible many times, and from many different approaches. She does not use many commentaries or participate in those group Bible studies, that have the videos and workbooks. When Miss K's partner asked Diana if she used study aids or other books to help her understand the Bible, she asked why she would need to do that. "We just read the passage, where it said to keep asking, seeking and knocking, and the doors will be opened to you. I read and study the Bible and ask for guidance. The answers are all in the Bible. I don't need extra books or an organization to explain it to me."

I found that comment made by Miss K interesting: "You don't KNOW ENOUGH yet." She said that at least 5 times. It was very interesting to watch a seasoned JW pioneer try to talk to what I would call a mature and steadfast evangelical Christian. It made me realize something about how the indoctrination process works... bit by bit, nibble by nibble, and peck by peck, they chip away at your preconceived notions.

At one point, Miss K said to Diana, "I think I know why you are here. You are here, because you think FW is getting involved with a cult, and you want to protect her."

Diana paused and looked at her, and said, "Noooo... I am here, because I think you are lost, and I wanted to try to win YOU over to the Lord."

Both ladies had a physical response to this statement. Miss K's friend responded first. "That's nice of you, but I am not interested. Thank you anyway. After all that Jehovah has done for me, I have no interest in being drawn away. I could tell you my story, but we don't have time today. I had something bad happen to me, my home was broken into and I was very traumatized. I prayed to God to give me some answers, and the VERY NEXT DAY, the JW's came to my door, offering me answers to my questions. I started studying with them, became a JW, and have never experienced so much peace in my life as I have now. Especially now, with the end coming so swiftly, there is no way I would turn away from Jehovah. Thank you anyway, but no thank you." It was polite and slightly alarming at the same time.

Miss K said basically the same thing, except something about how "I know I already have the truth, but thanks anyway."

After that, the mood got a little more tense from their side of the table... I said, "So how about my question...? Is there anywhere in the Bible where Jesus says Jehovah? Why didn't they write it down, if it was so important? Jesus came to correct us and teach us... I think if that was so important, he would have made a bigger point of it. Can I share with you what I found?"

I opened my Bible to John 17:6 and also read John 17:26, where Jesus said, "I have made your name known." They read along with me... then I went backward, skimming over John 17, saying "this was part of a long prayer Jesus said to his Father... notice, he calls him 'Father' at the beginning." Now go back to John 16, right before that... who is he talking about, and what name is he talking about? John 16:23, 24 & 26: Jesus tells them to use 'MY name, MY name, MY name.' Then later he says, 'I have made your name known.' The only name he has mentioned here, is his OWN name. I have not found anywhere in the Bible, where Jesus tells them to use any other personal name for God. He always calls him Father."

Miss K says, "That's right. We ask for things in Jesus' name. There is no other way to get to Jehovah, unless we use the name of Jesus."

I say, "But Jesus himself never even used the name. Why are JW's so fixated on calling God by the name Jehovah, when Jesus is the name above all names?"

(She has already used the rationale that the Bible is corrupted and incomplete, so she comes up with a new one): "Do you call your father by his first name?"

I said, "No way. I have known my dad's name since I was about 3 years old, but he would have a cow if I started calling him Doug."

Miss K came back with, "Well, Jesus didn't call his Father by his first name either, out of respect for his position." (Ooooohhhh... wait, what?)

I said, "But he told the disciples to call God by the name Jehovah... it was just removed from the scriptures, so there is no record of him ever saying that? If it was so important, then why did he keep telling them to call him Father?"

Miss K said, "He didn't, remember? I showed you where he quoted the old testament and he obviously did not omit anything, because that would be a sin against God."

I said, "He even gave us an example prayer in the Lord's Prayer. He said, 'When you pray, pray like this, 'Our Father, who art in Heaven...' He told them to call him 'Our Father.' "

Miss K's friend said, "... let your name be sanctified."

I said, "but he didn't tell us what it was... ??? Why didn't he tell us how to pronounce it? And why do you make a big show out of saying it over and over, even though you know it is a mispronunciation?"

We were way past time at this point, and they were on their way out the door. Miss K sighed and said, "Well, it seems clear that you are happy with the path you are on. I thought that I could help shed some light on your questions and help you understand, but we will just stop wasting your time."

I said, "Well, you keep coming here and telling me that you're telling me what the Bible actually says, yet you can't show me in the Bible where it actually says that..."

I added, "Every question that I have asked you, you have not been able to answer. It is getting to the point, where I am just gathering a pile of claims that are not actually in the Bible. I am trying to follow what Jesus said to do, but the Watchtower does not agree with that."

Miss K was resigning at this point, sighing and starting to leave, "I appreciate the iced tea. Thanks for talking with us today. It was nice to meet you, Diana."

I said, "I've already studied that whole book... and it does not match what I am reading in the Bible."

Miss K said, "Well, I don't think you ever looked at it from the right perspective. I was hoping I could help you understand, and show you what the Bible really says."

I just said, "I know, and it's not personal at all. You just have not been able to back up your claims, when we try to examine these Watchtower teachings in the Bible."

I summarized again, for the benefit of her friend, "The claims of the faithful and discreet slave, and the new articles I keep seeing in the magazines, featuring full page articles about governing body members... that really looks like they are holding themselves up as idols. Their power is based on one bible verse, which is part of a parable. They expect undying loyalty, and unquestioning obedience. They reign over millions of JW's worldwide."

To that, Miss K said, "See... the way you put that, tells me that you are using some other source for your information. You did not get that from a Watchtower magazine. They never claimed that they reign over millions of people!!"

I said, "It is my own observation, and I admit I drew my own conclusion there, based on the way they present themselves. I have seen the way they are idolized by JW's, even before I knew what the faithful and discreet slave even was..."

"And then... there is the fact that you record all of your efforts on a time card and turn it into MEN for recognition of one kind or another, that contradicts what I read in Matthew 6:1-6, where Jesus warned them against doing their works for men. Why do you write your name on that time card? You are getting your rewards from men on earth! Do your good deeds in secret, and God will reward you."

Miss K said, "I explained to you why we do that, and I'm sure there are people who don't do the time cards..."

I said, "GOD is probably capable of keeping track of your efforts for you!" Her friend gave me a wide-eyed look.

"And now, when I ask you why JW's are so fixated on saying 'Jehovah' all the time, we are not able to find anywhere in the Bible that instructs us to do that. I think you are making an idol out of the name of your religion. I am trying to follow Jesus, the name above all names. I think you are being deceived."

After a few more niceties, they left. I felt bad for them, as they were walking away. I don't know if there will be any repercussions from this final BS session. I will now be added to Miss K's list of Bible Studies that ended... but if she shrugs her shoulders again and says, "I don't know WHAT happened..." she will be lying. I did try to explain to her, and I do feel nothing but compassion for her.

She is just lost and deceived. At least I kept her off some other people's doorsteps for about 30 hours...

I wonder if she will come back again, or if she realizes that I actually might be an apostate (whatever that means)??

42

What did Jesus really mean, when he said he had made his Father's name known?

by Faithful Witness in

i am preparing for my meeting this friday with miss k. we are reviewing the bible teach book, and she is looking forward to "showing me some things about the divine name.

" i don't know what she might pull out of her hat this time... but that section of the teach book is so completely assanine, i don't even know what to say.

) what did jesus mean when he said that to his father?.

Faithful Witness

Miss K returned yesterday, for a last and final pitch. I managed to postpone our discussion for almost 2 months.

She brought a new partner this time, and was a little suprised to see that I had invited my own friend along. Diana is an evangelical with a passion for witnessing to JW's, and "trying to bring them to the Lord." Since I knew I was giving up on my study with Miss K, I let Diana make her attempts at sharing the gospel with her. It was interesting to watch, but completely fruitless for both of them (surprise, surprise!)

I expressed my concerns and asked my questions, and watched Miss K avoid, deflect and turn them all around on me. During our 90 minute conversation, they managed to touch on every key JW doctrine. Ugh... but they still never were able to show me in the Bible, where Jesus actually used a personal name of God. There were also no instructions recorded, in which Jesus told us to use any name but his own.

Instead, he told them to ask in his name, pray in his name... then after a long prayer to his father, he says, "I have made your name known." (John 16:23- John 17)

(Where is the personal name made known? ... it's not in the BIble, in the directions from Jesus... )

Jesus spent a lot of time giving speeches and correcting people. If it were that important that we start calling God by a different or specific name, surely someone would have recorded it. I'm also wondering what response there would have been, when he quoted Hebrew scriptures, and used the personal name of God. Was he speaking Aramaic? If he was "quoting" or "reading" from the scriptures, was he translating, or reading a translated version? Was anyone even speaking Hebrew at that time? How did he pronounce the tetragrammaton? Was there no reaction from those listening? No one asked him to clarify or why he was using the name that was too holy to say out loud?

Odd... if this was SO important, and you are going to base an entire religion on it, then it seems Jesus would have been more specific. If he told them to use a name, why didn't he tell them how to pronounce it?

I said to Miss K, "If Jesus really wanted us to call God by the name Jehovah, why is there no record of him using it himself? He called him Father."

Her response was (gasp! A question!), "Do you call your father by his first name?"

"No," I said, "I have known my dad's name since I was about 3 years old, and if I started calling him Doug, he would not be pleased."

"Exactly! Jesus didn't call God by the name Jehovah, out of respect. Jehovah is his father." --- WHAAAAT??? You have to be kidding me right now! Wow. That was a mental backflip. I did not see that coming. Haha.

I said, "But he also never came right out and told US to call him by any specific name. He never said, 'Listen up you guys. You're getting this all wrong, and it's very important. You're getting this part all wrong. When you call on God, you need to use the name Jehovah (or Yahweh or however the tetragrammaton is supposed to be pronounced). I came to make his name known... and His name is JEHOVAH.' "

Blank look from Miss K, and then, "Ah, but don't forget, the scriptures had been corrupted and twisted by the 1st century."

I said, "Wait a minute, we started this discussion, and we all had to agree that the Bible was the true and accurate word of God. Is it true and accurate, or do you need to add to it? There is no evidence for these interpretations you are giving me."

Anyway, I am going to start a new thread to update and conclude the saga with Miss K. She and her friend came to the conclusion that I was "happy where I was," and that I had chosen "to be led" in another direction. I told her that I was going to follow what Jesus said, and it did not agree with Watchtower instructions.

I feel very sorry for Miss K and for her friend, who have both been robbed of their reasoning ability. I will miss our discussions, but know that ending this relationship was the best for my sanity and my family. I can't waste time studying a false religion anymore.

44

This week's WT study...made me so sick.....

by stuckinarut2 in

this week's study april 15th 2014 was called "do you see the one who is invisible?".

it was perhaps one of the most depressing, controlling, fear-mongering, stress inducing, doctrinally incorrect, hate-inspiring, judgemental, cult-like, irrational, hyped-up, critical, crazy, stretched out, fanciful, illogical, burdensome, inflated, coersive, manipulative, and brain-snappingly weird stuff i have read for some time.... (but i'm sure it was just a rehash and repeat of previous stuff...for the new masses....).

i had to keep up a sane appearance while in the hall, and even answer some garbage while this was being 'studied'... my cognitive disonance must be so strong now, because i found this one of the hardest ones to endure....now that i am home, i have poured a stiff drink and am trying to clear my head...... one paragraph was classic:.

Faithful Witness

"It was perhaps one of the most depressing, controlling, fear-mongering, stress inducing, doctrinally incorrect, hate-inspiring, judgemental, cult-like, irrational, hyped-up, critical, crazy, stretched out, fanciful, illogical, burdensome, inflated, coersive, manipulative, and brain-snappingly weird stuff I have read for some time..."

Aww, tell us how you REALLY feel... ;)

Seriously, UGH! The title of the article, is enough to set off alarm bells. I haven't read it, and wasn't planning to read it. So sorry you have to put yourself through that horrid mess. So glad to hear there are at least some people with enough sense to realize what a mess the Watchtower has become.

Do you think that some of the comments from the audience are planted or scripted? I got that feeling, when we visited a KH last fall for the July 15, 2013 WT study.

Best to you! You have my condolences.

42

What did Jesus really mean, when he said he had made his Father's name known?

by Faithful Witness in

i am preparing for my meeting this friday with miss k. we are reviewing the bible teach book, and she is looking forward to "showing me some things about the divine name.

" i don't know what she might pull out of her hat this time... but that section of the teach book is so completely assanine, i don't even know what to say.

) what did jesus mean when he said that to his father?.

Faithful Witness

Thank you all for taking the time to read and respond. I appreciate the input, and some great points were made.

Gentledawn: Thanks for the video. Great illustration. You are right. Just as others have been telling me for a few months... Game over with Miss K. I'm not going to allow her to continue to manipulate me. I've been kind, I listened to her points, and I did my own research.

I have come to realize that it is time to stop playing games with Miss K. She does not realize she has been deceived, and it is not my job to change her mind. She loves her version of the "truth," and she is happy as a JW.

I have cancelled our meeting for tomorrow, and have told her to check back with me in 2 weeks. I have important family commitments next week, and I can't be distracted and consumed with these JW issues right now. I sincerely doubt that even entertaining and humoring Miss K, is going to win me any favor with my family members anyway. They are all going to do, whatever they decide (or are convinced) to do.

It is sad and hard to admit, but it is true. My family has been ripped apart by this cult, and even though I feel helpless to change it, I just have to turn my focus back toward the ones who matter most in my life: my own children.

Hopefully, we can still work things out with my parents. I don't want my kids to continue being left out, just because I woke up before joining this organization.

It is time to just be honest. I will stop pretending to be "interested" in what Miss K has to say. After reading the first few chapters of that Teach book, I realize I just can't stomach it again. It is insulting, and I'm not going to give it anymore of my time.

I did go to my public library, and found enough evidence to convince me that the Watchtower is not speaking for God, and never has been.

I need to stop people-pleasing, and realize that I am simply outgunned right now. If there is a way to reach my family, this definitely is not it. Enough is enough. I'm taking back my Friday afternoons!